Sophie Allen: Montessori in Practice, Pedagogy and Developing Independence

Fliss: And a lot of experience. And you still do like bits with Montessori, don’t you? And stuff you think you recently did you do your masters?

Sophie: Yeah, that’s right. So I did a master’s in psychology just through lockdown, which was interesting.

Fliss: You could focus on it.

Sophie: Exactly. So that was brilliant to do that during that time. And I did a dissertation on Montessori and how parents perceive Montessori in the classroom. So brilliant to kind of tie it all together in that respect.

Fliss: Nice. So Montessori is probably things that a lot of early years people have heard about. I mean, we were just chatting a bit before and I remember like doing about it in my course and stuff. It was one of them, the theories that you learn about. But before we dig into Montessori in a bit more detail, Let’s chat a little bit about curriculum and pedagogy because this is where it all kind of comes in. So you’ve got your curriculum, you’ve got your pedagogy. If you think of an earlier setting, they have both and they’re intertwined. But I always find some people get them a little bit confused and what are they exactly?

Sophie: I totally understand and I can see how it does get a bit confused and they’re kind of blended into two. So the curriculum is what you want the children to learn and the pedagogy is how you do it. So for example, in a Montessori classroom, you’ve got the Montessori being the pedagogy and the curriculum is the EYFS. So the EYFS being the statutory framework to ensure that all children are healthy and safe and their well-being is good to ensure that they’re ready for school life, school and life really. So yeah, in a Montessori setting again, you’ve got your materials, you’ve got your philosophy, you’ve got your teachers, kind of known as guides sometimes as well, and the environment in which the children are in So that’s your kind of pedagogy for a Montessori setting?

Fliss: And I guess as well, because a lot of settings draw on different approaches. Like there’s so many out there you hear of like Montessori, Curiosity is a more new one, Forest Schools, Reggio, Steiner, like there’s so many. So it can be quite… Overwhelming for a manager and for people like in the sector, the quality people and the early years leads and stuff like that in settings to decide what approach they take. So what would you advise for managers? Like how do they decide on what pedagogy they choose?

Sophie: Yeah, I think it’s a lot about, it comes down to their own values and vision of how they’d like their environment to be, what they would like their school setting to be, what they feel personally, you know, what they believe in. Have they got the resources. So if you wanted to kind of do a forest school, have you got the capacity? Have you got a forest nearby? Or can you go and do, can you add it as an extracurricular thing? So kind of promote forest school in that sense. A lot of Montessori is focused on having child-sized materials. So everything is at child-sized heights to make it really inviting and for the children to feel like they can access learning independently. So it’s do you have the resources for that, not only financially, but do you have it practically as well? So do you have the space for that free flow kind of learning for the children? So yeah, so in terms of the… environment, that’s really important , but it was also your staff. Are your staff really interested in forest school regio? Have you got somebody who wants to train in it? Have you got somebody who’s already trained and kind of wants to make that impact on your nursery? So speaking to your staff, speaking to your parents as well, you know, what would they like to see? Do they have a particular interest in a certain pedagogy? See, I use curriculum there most.

Fliss: Yeah, no, it’s very easy to do. I think even the extra added element that got confusing when the EYFS changed, they allowed settings to design their own curriculum.

Sophie: Exactly.

Fliss: Based on, like, as long as you’re drawing in them seven areas of learning, they could decide what they wanted the children to learn and stuff, and then that added an extra element, and that then got a bit confused with my pedagogy as well, but it’s so easily done, isn’t it?

Sophie: It is, it is. But yeah, I’d say the environment, speaking to your staff, speaking to your parents and also your community as well. So what do your parents and your children celebrate? how diverse is your setting? What do you want to celebrate? Do parents and children want to come in and talk about their heritage? Do they want to celebrate a particular festival? allowing other children who aren’t exposed to that to be involved. So, building on that cultural capital, for sure.

Fliss: And you’ve worked in Montessori’s and they were solely Montessori nurseries. Yes. What was your experience in the nurseries like?

Sophie: I was really fortunate to be in some fantastic Montessori schools and ones that were pure Montessori schools. because there are some Montessori schools that I have been in and I’ve heard of and that, there are some out there that say that they’re Montessori and they’re not quite, which can be misleading for teachers and parents, for sure. And I think what really makes a Montessori environment is the way that the children are taught, how the environment is laid out, and those principles that the school follows as a whole is really, really important . But yeah, it was brilliant to see firsthand as a student when I was doing my studies, like how you see it in practice.

Fliss: Yeah, did you know when you were like sort of doing your studies that you wanted to go into the Montessori nurseries? Was that like a like theories that like really resonated with you?

Sophie: Yeah, I think going back to my own education when I was probably, in secondary school, I remember personally being taught something that I wasn’t ready for or something that I was capable of and knowing that, actually not knowing that there was a philosophy or there was a method where your learning can be individual, can be tailored. Because I remember struggling in school and thinking, I can’t do this and everyone else can and just thinking, gosh. So what I love about it is that it is individualized to each child. So you are honing in on their own skills and just taking it at their pace, which is what I really love and it’s been great to see and to teach as well.

Fliss: Because a lot of it is based on repetition as well. A child will only ever actually learn after doing it like say like 40 times and stuff like that, isn’t it? Yeah.

Sophie: Exactly. I really love the way that in Montessori they call it the three period lesson. So it’s kind of like a slow introduction to a material. So if you’re teaching about shapes, for example, you’re going to teach them about, you’re going to say this is a square, this is a triangle, this is a circle. And then you say, can you name this? And you point to each object. And then you say to them, in the third stage, you say, can you tell me what this is? So it’s very gradual. And if they’re struggling at the second period, then you just stop and you go back to it another time. So it’s kind of, it’s great for their, you know, social and emotional development as well. So just kind of knowing that they’re not going to fail. And it’s not a bad thing to fail at.

Fliss: In terms of how that would look in practice with it being child-led, is it more, am I right in thinking that a lot of it, it’s more they choose what they want to interact with in the environment. So you as the teacher, as the educator in the room, you have to notice that they’re playing with shapes and that’s you’re kind of in to interact rather than you setting up an activity on shapes being like, come over here and do this.

Sophie: Yeah, exactly. So it’s really a foundation of Montessori’s observation. So as a teacher or as a guide, you watch the child and you think, okay, well, little Danny’s playing with sticks or something, but he loves shapes. So you think, okay, well, maybe we could make some shapes out of sticks and kind of really honing in on their interests and kind of linking that to nature, knowledge of the world, which is an area of the EYFS, understanding of the world. And yeah, bringing those two elements together has been really fun to do with the children.

Fliss: Yeah. Even then, the little things that you’re talking about then, like from settings that I’ve worked in, we’ve drawn on them elements of methods of teaching and like pedagogy and stuff. But you do find that with Montessori people draw on a lot of elements of it, but then they don’t do the whole approach. If a setting wanted to be known as a Montessori initiative, do they have to do anything in particular?

Sophie: To have accreditations. Yeah, so there are accreditations. So one being Montessori Society UK. There’s Montessori Global Education and there’s AMI, which is Association of Montessori International, but it’s for USA and Canada, so less relevant to us in the UK. But yeah, there are accreditation boards that you can go through and then you just get assessed of how your staff teach, what the environment’s like, and you go through a process. And it’s just a great way to say that you really follow the Montessori approach.

Fliss:
So
if you could sum up the Montessori approach, like in a few words and what it is exactly, what does it draw on? Because I guess the managers listening and stuff and they think about what they want to embed into their practice, they want to see it have their benefits for the children and draw it all back to how it’s helping the children. How would you like some of the benefits and what it actually does ?

Sophie: Yeah, I would say person’s personal, social and emotional development. I know there’s obviously a holistic side to it as well. But it’s really a way of supporting the child through their independence, allowing them to develop their social skills and… allowing to be with other children who are of different ages. So that’s a huge aspect of the Montessori approach.

Fliss: And in mixed classrooms there.

Sophie: Yeah, so they’re mixed ages. So it’s a great opportunity for the older children to learn for the younger and vice versa.

Fliss: Even with like babies in preschool in the same room or is it more like toddlers in preschool?

Sophie: More so than more I’ve been in environments where it’s just toddlers, so from 2: 00 to 5: 00, but I believe there are settings that have children who are much younger.

Fliss: I kind of can’t wrap my head around that, like babies and preschool all in one room. Imagine the noise level.

Sophie: It must be quite loud. But yeah, I would say that those three areas of development are really, really supported by Montessori. Yeah.

Fliss: Nice. So for managers that probably want to bring some of the Montessori philosophy into their setting, how can they do that? Like what are some of your top tips for doing them?

Sophie: I would say, again, it kind of relates back to our question previously. It’s like looking at your environment, speaking to your staff, speaking to your parents, what are the children really enjoying in the classroom? Having a look at other Montessori settings, is it something that you really want to kind of invest and Is it something that you want to invest in and adapt into your classroom as well? Is it something you want to get accreditation for? Do you have staff who are interested in Montessori and want to do training for it as well? And yeah, just doing kind of research and seeing what pedagogical approach really works for you and your setting and what you have.

Fliss: Resources, because you can mix a few of them, can’t you? can build on different ones and stuff like that, so you can touch on little elements of the philosophy and the principles and then also touch on others, depending on what you have in the nursery and what children you have as well. And I think a lot of settings probably decide their pedagogy and stuff, but your next cohort of children could be totally different and it’s okay to change the way that you are with the children, your methods of teaching.

Sophie: Exactly. I think it depends on, you know, the staff that you’ve got. What’s their particular way of teaching and how do they interact with the children? But every season we always change the, or every term we change the materials around. So there’s always something new for the children to learn from. We do this mostly with practical life activities. So these are activities that they do every day. So it might be cleaning shoes, it might be Transferring with a spoon, so if they’re making their own cereal in the morning, they’re learning to do things like that. So learning about the weight of the cereal, learning about the weight of, it might be pebbles or something, it might be conkers in the autumn, you know, transferring from one bowl to another. So they’re indirect ways of teaching children practical life activities. And also changing those, as I say, with the seasons. So you could use conkers or you could use spring flowers or do flower arranging. So there are loads of things that you can interact and change.

Fliss: That’s nice. And you’ve mentioned a bit about the staff and stuff like that. So I guess in a Montessori nursery that is solely follows the Montessori method and stuff like that. Are them, did they, them staffing that nursery, did they have to have the Montessori, like any like qualification or specific training in order for them to work there?

Sophie: Yeah, so it’s really important to have a member of staff who is qualified in Montessori, so that really helps them to lead the practice in the classroom.

Fliss: For sure. And I guess when you think about for the career progression for in early years and within settings, that’s like a really nice thing to think about because you see it quite a lot of people like leave the sector because they think there’s no progression. Like that sort of thing. It’s nice to think that people can progress into a pedagogy that they really resonate with and then they can get that qualification that gives them that extra bit of employability to go into nursery. So I think that’s a really nice thing.

Sophie: Yeah, I mean, it’s I’ve worked with teaching assistants who have been a teaching assistant and then they’ve gone into Montessori courses themselves because they just enjoyed it so much and enjoyed the pedagogy. So yeah, it’s great to be able to support them and show them the ropes and have a fellow Montessorian.

Fliss: Yeah, no, it is nice. And you do see it quite a lot now. A lot of settings do have like a a quality lead and stuff, even in the single size. I mean, I know the big groups, they do have proper quality leads across the settings and stuff, but you do sit in the individual ones. Even in my setting that I first worked in, that was a small independent nursery. And they started to explore the ideas of one of us becoming a quality lead. So it is a really nice chance to show off your skills, your practice, your expertise in a certain area. I guess as well for any managers listening, where can they go and learn about Montessori and think about if they’ve heard some things in this conversation where they’re like, yeah, I want to learn about this a little bit more and start training staff and talking about it in our staff meetings and maybe think about how we can change our pedagogy, where can they go to?

Sophie: So there’s a few organisations, one being the Montessori Society UK. They have a great, great source of information on there for parents, carers, teachers. And there’s a quarterly magazine that comes out, which is for all those audiences. So it really talks to you about how beneficial Montessori is, any jobs going, And yeah, that’s a brilliant, brilliant place to start. Another one being the Montessori Global Education. So this is who I did my degree through. So they’ve got courses on there. They all do webinars. They’re at events as well. So that’s a great place to get involved. Yeah.

Fliss: Nice. And we spoke a bit about your research and I would like to learn a little bit more about it because I guess as well to managers, it’s useful to know like what parents actually do think of Montessori if they’re going to start bringing this approach in. I didn’t have a general idea. So yeah, what did you find in your research?

Sophie: It was really small scale research, but I spoke to 10 sets of parents, five of which attended Montessori, and they really liked the independent side of it. So children were able to do things for themselves. They were patient, they were calm, and they were just able to do things without that But without being afraid to fail.

Fliss: Yeah.

Sophie: Which is a. Like perseverance. Yeah, there’s a huge amount of perseverance when it’s in Montessori. And as I was saying, the teachers are known as guides, so it’s really following the child and allowing them to explore things on their own, in their own pace.

Fliss: Yeah.

Sophie: And knowing as a teacher, and hopefully that kind of transpires into the parents’ way when they’re at home is giving them time, giving them time to figure things out, just kind of stepping back and just allowing them to figure things out for themselves. So it was great to hear that many parents had taken that approach home and because that was great for the child’s consistency as well.

Fliss: Is that part of the approach like the Montessori nurseries that you’ve worked in, like working on that parent partnerships with like the things, the principles that you having the nursery and giving them information and helping them build their knowledge on the approach that they can use that at home as well. Is that all part of it?

Sophie: Yeah, exactly. So having parents, giving parents the opportunity to learn about Montessori, so having like a workshop in the evening or something or in the afternoon at pickup time, just to say like, this is, these are the materials that your child’s been working on. This is how we teach it. what have their interests been and kind of if they’ve suddenly developed a love of, I don’t know, dinosaurs over the summer holiday or something, that’s great for us to know about because then we can take that and take that child’s interest and continue in the classroom. And so they can develop on that as well. So yeah, it was independence and being able to share as well. with other children, because again, it’s the mixed age groups. It’s being helped, helping others as well. So those were two key, two key findings from my research, which I found like loads of fun.

Fliss: Yeah, I think very interesting as well, the independence one as well. I wonder if that really links with the fact that they’re watching, they’re watching older children like be more independent. So they pick up on that, even like little things that I always remember my childhood and my sister was very independent and I very quickly was independent too. And it’s like you, because you’re surrounded by that older, older role model in some ways. They probably look up to the preschoolers as like the five-year-olds as role models, don’t they? In some ways. I want to be like you.

Sophie: Exactly. And showing them, you know, this is how we roll a mat. So each area will have a small, small carpet that the child can roll out. They’ll do their activity. They’ll pull it away and roll their mat out and put it back. So they’ve got a designated space for them to work in. So that’s. that’s just one example. Or it’s helping themselves to snack. So, older one might pour the little one a drink and vice versa.

Fliss: Very sweet.

Sophie: Yeah, really sweet . And, if you spill it, there’s, it’s fine.

Fliss: Yeah, no, it’s not like, oh my gosh, you’ve spilled it. No, like, it’s not like you’ve done wrong. Yeah, it’s fine.

Sophie: Yeah. I mean, I had a little girl who dropped a, she dropped a glass bowl and she burst into tears. And I said, it’s okay. I said, she was really upset by it because it was something that she was, working with. And I said, it’s okay. I said, would you like a hug? Yes. So we had a hug and then we cleared it up together. Well, not the glass bit, but you know, I said to her, it’s okay to break things. I break things too. This is how I clean it up. You can’t touch it because it will sharp and you’ll hurt yourself. but we’ll get another one, it’s fine. And just kind of connecting with the child before kind of correcting them, I think is really important as well.

Fliss: It’s a bit of a different like mindset shift.

Sophie: Exactly.

Fliss: And like the way that you approach them situations, because it’s very natural for us when something’s smashed on the floor, oh my gosh, what have you done? Like quickly panic. Yeah. So it’s like that shift in how do we deal with this? They actually kind of learn from the experience as well.

Sophie: Exactly. Like it’s okay to, it’s okay to. great things. It’s okay for things to go wrong. Things go wrong in your life all the time.

Fliss: Yeah, I find it interesting. And then building that with parents and letting them know that this is how you approach situations like that. So they can do similar at home and it’s helping build this child up for success in the future because they’re learning this at home and in nursery. Yeah, really good benefit.

Sophie: Yeah, it’s not a bad thing at all. No.

Fliss: That wraps up Montessori really nicely . I think a nice little note to end on with Montessori. But as always, I like to ask all our guests to finish the sentence. To me, working in the early years is…

Sophie: I would say it’s a privilege because you are in those really early days of their lives, helping them develop those interests and just It’s just so much fun just seeing them grow. And I know that sounds really cliche, but when you say goodbye to those children who go off to nursery, to preschool or nursery, you just think, wow, you’ve changed so much since your first day. You know, this is what you really struggle with, but you can do that and beyond.

Fliss: And you’re a part of that journey.

Sophie: And you’re a part of that journey. I just think it’s, I’d say it’s a privilege to be part of the early years.

Fliss: I do love that. Well, thank you very much, Sophie, for coming on.

Sophie: Thank you for having me.

Fliss: Oh, nice.